00a1zx12r
Novice Class
Posts: 93
|
posted January 02, 2014 07:46 PM
2000 ZX12R Top speed records?
Does anybody know if a STOCK BORE 2000 12R has ever broke the 200mph mark? It does not have to be stock, but it also does HAVE to be 1199ccs. and can have any Bolton mod.
Any documentation on this? I thought it would be possible, but some nay sayers beg to differ. I personally hit 220mph on my speedonmeter, but it is geared down to a 17th in front, Brocks full exhaust, K & N's, and PCIII w/ Brocks map.
I know my speedometer is off but don't know by how much. I was at 11,000rpm's in 6th.
Any body know this answer? How fast is a 12R with 17/46 gearing that can pull till redline?.
  
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 02, 2014 08:00 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 3 Jan 2014 04:01
There are pages and pages on this if you search. I went 192 with a stock muffler and 198 or something with a Muzzy pipe at a private timed test at Maxton in 2000. Lots of controversy, lots of discussion.
I think your bike likely will run 195 or so with the 17, might run 198-200 with an 18 and good air, best case. It won't bump the limiter with the 18, might with the 17. Shiphteey's the expert -he's been at it on the 12 longer than any of us.
I think a well broken in 12A1 will, on a cool day at sea level, with a good pipe, a good tune and a good rider run 200 in a mile + a little.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
00a1zx12r
Novice Class
Posts: 93
|
posted January 02, 2014 08:19 PM
That's pretty much what I thought. I really love my bike. It has brought me where I have not been before. After I hit 180mhp on my dial, the bike surges forward like a pissed off freight train. When I sank my needle one night racing a bus a, I felt close to GOD. Its such a PHAT bike!! Its thick and mean looking. Its a 100lbs heavier than any 1000cc but keeps up with everything on the road.
It will be my only sport bike.
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1607
|
posted January 03, 2014 05:33 AM
quote:
There are pages and pages on this if you search. I went 192 with a stock muffler and 198 or something with a Muzzy pipe at a private timed test at Maxton in 2000. Lots of controversy, lots of discussion.
I think your bike likely will run 195 or so with the 17, might run 198-200 with an 18 and good air, best case. It won't bump the limiter with the 18, might with the 17. Shiphteey's the expert -he's been at it on the 12 longer than any of us.
I think a well broken in 12A1 will, on a cool day at sea level, with a good pipe, a good tune and a good rider run 200 in a mile + a little.
So true!!
I personaly went 196 on my 2K 12R in damp, 2,200+ ft. air. Thanks to Doug, I was able to use his exact Muzzy Pipe and Map to achive this. I'm not exactly Jay "Pee Wee" Gleason either. In comparison, I was only able to achieve 184.5 with full stock exhaust. Funny, the bike went 180 at 10,300 (11,000 on tach) in 5th. Learned right then that the stock exhaust could not flow any more after 10,300-400 rpm.
Everything else on the bike was stock.
We used a GPS and Cycle Worlds Radar gun to verify.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 03, 2014 07:27 AM
Edited By: shiphteey on 3 Jan 2014 15:31
Does anybody know if a STOCK BORE 2000 12R has ever broke the 200mph mark?
----Yes it has been done.
It does not have to be stock, but it also does HAVE to be 1199ccs. and can have any Bolton mod.
----Are you including nitrous bikes? If so then it opens it up fastly. Same with Turbo 12s.
Any documentation on this?
----Absolutely.
I thought it would be possible, but some nay sayers beg to differ. I personally hit 220mph on my speedonmeter, but it is geared down to a 17th in front, Brocks full exhaust, K & N's, and PCIII w/ Brocks map.
-----A 17 tooth with a stock rev limiter hitting at 11,600 actual (12,200 on the gauges) is only good for 183 mph give or take. If you only got to redline which is 11,500 indicated on the gauges you were going about 170 mph actual. Yes...humbling.
I know my speedometer is off but don't know by how much. I was at 11,000rpm's in 6th.
----11,000 is FAR AWAY from 12,200 rpms which is the highest it will indicate with the stock ecu/stock rev limiter.
Any body know this answer? How fast is a 12R with 17/46 gearing that can pull till redline?.
----Redline is not the rev limiter. But I've given you some numbers to go over and get you a ballpark of about how fast you were going.
One true, and I mean stone stockers with oem air filters and restrictive stock exhausts, tall gearing (stock 18/46) a stock 12R with no nitrous, exotic fuels, tailwinds etc will NEVER go 200 mph. 18/46 is good for about 196 on the stock rev limiter. The stock exhaust is too restrictive. 2 different 12s I've dynoed in stock config were 148 RWHP SAE. Dismal. I've wrung em out and was disappointed with their low low 180ish mph speeds. Remove the cat and I've seen 160RWHP. Throw on a Muzzy full exhaust system and even with NO tuning you will break over 170 RWHP. Just throwing on the muzzy pipe helped me break the 190 mph barrier. Thats borderline INSANE in terms of the MPH gains given its just ONE modification!! The full exhaust picks you up 24 HP or so and lets the bike's HP curve CLIMB and not nose off. Is that enough to go 200 mph with unlimited room? If we're talking no tricks, no tailwind and REAL speed...still a little off the mark, even if you ditch the mirrors, signals and perfect your tuck. But it does get close.
Going over 190 MPH is very doable with a pipe and some room. Ditch the mirrors and signals for good measure.
Best I've done (street) was 195.6 pump gas, stock ride height, aftermarket filters and full muzzys exhaust. I am pretty sure I had a set of stacks on it. I believe mixed stacks from Bear. Had I had race fuel and had the bike lowered with a little more room...on that particular day...would the bike have gone 200 mph...? Yes it had the possibility to do it.
Personally I have not broken 200 mph on a 12R without the assistance of a nitrous kit. But if you asked me can a stock engine 12R with no nitrous, no turbo, no supercharging go 200 mph...? I would say YES but NOT in the standing 1 mile run. You need some more room to let the bike really sing. The 12R's power curve is unlike any other bike I've ever seen on the dyno. Still climbing and benefiting from extending the rev range. Most bikes flatten out or usually nose over. The 12R is a screamer.
The recipe? Lower the bike, full exhaust, stacks, aftermarket air filter, tuned, race fuel, synthetic oil, talented rider of small or medium size and lots of room, more than a mile, yes it can be done. To make it mathematically possible a slight regear, RPM extension or tire size change would help ensure it becomes a reality.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 03, 2014 07:29 AM
quote:
There are pages and pages on this if you search. I went 192 with a stock muffler and 198 or something with a Muzzy pipe at a private timed test at Maxton in 2000. Lots of controversy, lots of discussion.
I think your bike likely will run 195 or so with the 17, might run 198-200 with an 18 and good air, best case. It won't bump the limiter with the 18, might with the 17. Shiphteey's the expert -he's been at it on the 12 longer than any of us.
I think a well broken in 12A1 will, on a cool day at sea level, with a good pipe, a good tune and a good rider run 200 in a mile + a little.
Doug actually you clocked 199.1 mph not 198. For the author....that means Doug was literally less than 100 rpms from 200.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 06, 2014 12:19 PM
Thanks for the correction Ship.
I like your "if only" spec!
Here's a good one- When I set the MPS 1350 Gas record at Bonneville with my 1140 ZX-11 at 199.444, I was roughly "an arm's length" from 200. That is, if I had been about 30" further along at that moment, I'd have clocked 200. That haunts me to this day.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 06, 2014 04:03 PM
199.578....I still remember my 2nd attempt to crack 200 mph.....end of season Maxton 2005.
That was a very long, somewhat bitter 6 months till it re-opened. I could kick myself for NOT REMOVING THE DAMN FRONT SIGNALS!!!
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted January 22, 2014 07:31 AM
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted January 22, 2014 07:40 PM
stock motor, bolt on parts, first wknd racing lsr (drag experience definitely helped!!)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted January 22, 2014 09:50 PM
1.5 mile track.... I think all the above times and MPH was done in 1 mile.. Ship indicated that a longer track would change the results.
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted January 25, 2014 09:41 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 26 Jan 2014 05:41
the original post has no reference to distance, i just sort of skimmed the rest. it has 1 mile speed on the slip too. very hard to crack the 200 in just a mile!!! i did the yr after in a little worse conditions with a no-longer-stock motor. (200.5)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted January 27, 2014 01:06 PM
Edited By: Gunner on 27 Jan 2014 21:07
quote:
the original post has no reference to distance, i just sort of skimmed the rest. it has 1 mile speed on the slip too. very hard to crack the 200 in just a mile!!! i did the yr after in a little worse conditions with a no-longer-stock motor. (200.5)
All 3 Millhollands broke 200 on a stock 2000 12R long ago. I think they all 3 went 202 at Maxton on Dan's Silver A1. I feel today with what we know and the little tricks we have all learned all 3 could have gone close to 205 on the same bike on the same day. I know the bike well and each of the riders well. They done what they done the same way Henry took Karls 1427 bike and went leaps and bounds faster than Karl every did or ever could even with the world famous Doug riding it. All Henry done was cross all his T's and dot all his's i's using the same motor if not less motor than Karl used since I think I read somewhere it was in a lesser state of tune than Karl ran it. Karl's bike wouldn't roll free, wasn't Aero in the least and above all else it was HEAVY! Henry addressed all those issues and the results speak for their self. He didn't extract more power than Karl did he simply used it much wiser. The Millhollands done the exact same thing in 2001 I think it was maybe 2002. Knowing them and their bikes as I do they over looked nothing that they knew to look at during that time and long before most they knew how their riding and body position effects the outcome since Chad had been taken under the wing of Chip Ellis during his time riding for Muzzy's. Even a baggy set of leathers make a big difference.
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
|
posted January 29, 2014 04:31 AM
Edited By: oldkawboy on 29 Jan 2014 12:36
Thanks Gunner for the words, man it has been a while.
Back then it was so much fun, we didn't have big horsepower like today. The work involved was truly enjoyable. Like you said Mike, we just fine tuned what we could.
There was very few race bikes in the early days, everyone was just running their streetbikes. When the kits starting becoming available for turbo-charging the ' Busa's seems like everything changed. You could bolt on a kit and run 220+, big numbers a dozen years ago.
Then the speeds got crazy fast with 500+ horsepower and there was a slew of riders really flying but in my eyes it wasn't the same. Even though us and a few folks still dabble in LSR with our streetbikes most have dedicated bikes. Something one has to do to run really fast.
The early folks just wanted to go reasonably fast by tweaking what we had, low funds also helped!!
I ran a 208 last year at Loring on my 14 streetbike. It's basically like my old 12 (not as pretty though) with stock bore, stroke and cams. That was at 1.5 miles. What's ironic is my one mile speeds are the same as my 12.......gotta love them old 12's!
Thanks for a trip down memory lane guys,
Dan
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted January 29, 2014 08:00 PM
the 1427 was down about a point in compression ratio compared to Karls best dyno numbers. Karl was running C44. we were running MRX-02 so Im guessing we were on par hp wise. all the little things made huge improvements. 226.x into a 4 mph headwind vs 222.x with a good tail wind. the bike was put together exceptionally well and it was a true privilege to pilot it .
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted January 30, 2014 08:08 PM
Edited By: Gunner on 31 Jan 2014 04:10
I can walk around someone's bike and pretty much tell you how it's going to fair in a race. Do this stuff long enough and you learn little tricks to look for that will tell you in a quick second how well the maintenance on a particular bike is kept up. A bike that's not kept in tip top maintenance only wins a race against a bike in lesser kept maintenance. They seldom if ever win a race against a bike that's kept up to a razor's honed edge of maintenance. The most fun I have is coast racing from the top of a mountain. Take the Hp right out of the equation and start from a dead stop 3 kicks and tuck in. That race will tell you the same outcome that using the motors will unless it's a lopsided match like a liter bike against a 600. Take what should be a good race between evenly matched bikes and do the coast race first and then the powered race after and the winner will be the same in both races. One race you'll barely break the speed limit and the other will land you in jail. But you will learn much more from the coast race. I have NEVER lost a coast race yet and the powered outcome always matches the coasting outcome. I just gave away one of the best kept speed secrets anyone will ever give away for free. If it won't roll free it won't roll fast... If you can't tuck in tight in won't roll fast.. Best legal class room any speed freak will ever attend. Add power and BAM! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted February 02, 2014 12:37 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Feb 2014 21:13
quote:
quote:
the original post has no reference to distance, i just sort of skimmed the rest. it has 1 mile speed on the slip too. very hard to crack the 200 in just a mile!!! i did the yr after in a little worse conditions with a no-longer-stock motor. (200.5)
All 3 Millhollands broke 200 on a stock 2000 12R long ago. I think they all 3 went 202 at Maxton on Dan's Silver A1. I feel today with what we know and the little tricks we have all learned all 3 could have gone close to 205 on the same bike on the same day. I know the bike well and each of the riders well. They done what they done the same way Henry took Karls 1427 bike and went leaps and bounds faster than Karl every did or ever could even with the world famous Doug riding it. All Henry done was cross all his T's and dot all his's i's using the same motor if not less motor than Karl used since I think I read somewhere it was in a lesser state of tune than Karl ran it. Karl's bike wouldn't roll free, wasn't Aero in the least and above all else it was HEAVY! Henry addressed all those issues and the results speak for their self. He didn't extract more power than Karl did he simply used it much wiser. The Millhollands done the exact same thing in 2001 I think it was maybe 2002. Knowing them and their bikes as I do they over looked nothing that they knew to look at during that time and long before most they knew how their riding and body position effects the outcome since Chad had been taken under the wing of Chip Ellis during his time riding for Muzzy's. Even a baggy set of leathers make a big difference.
Dan's motor was not 100% stock. I believe it had the base gasket removed, at least, if I recall correctly. Stock bore, yes.
The Millholland's effort is not comparable to Henry's in any way.
Shane
|
Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted February 03, 2014 06:03 PM
Gosh how could I be so silly I bow to your wisdom Shane. And here all this time I thought both of these people achieved their goals from paying attention to every last detail and in that respect they both achieved their goals in exactly the same manor. One bike is as modified as possible and the other bike was as stock as possible engine wise and in that respect they aren't anything alike, but they are EXACTLY alike in the respect that both efforts were meticulously prepared for their effort.
Adjusting the squish is legal in any stock motor class just the same as a 5 angle valve job is. You can't port the head but you can do a valve job. Luckily the rules that govern these classes are on paper and not contained within your silly little head. Are you saying Dan CHEATED when he ran those numbers Shane? Don't be shy if you think Dan Millholland is a cheater this is the place to get it out in the open. If you aren't willing to say that then let's agree that his motor was legal and did set and own the record for a stock motor 12R and he done it over 10 years ago. Aren't you insinuating his motor wasn't legal? Engine tolerances have variables built into them during the machining and assembly process on every OEM assembly line. That's why some motors run better than others. One may end up tighter and one may end up looser depending on the parts selected and as fate may have it there will be motors that end up with just about every part on the edge of acceptable and others will end up with nearly perfect parts and still yet others will have a mixture of some good and some not so good. Blueprinting a STOCK motor often times involves adjusting the deck height with base gasket thickness to achieve optimum squish. Who are you to say Dan's was anything other than optimum and within factory specifications? I can't say I wasn't there during assembly only Dan can say. But I do know the motor was found to be LEGAL for the record it held.
Pay attention Shane I NEVER said both bikes were the same. I said both men done what they done the EXACT same way and that way was crossing all their T's and Dotting all the i's... SLANG for paying attention to every LAST DETAIL! You are so obsessed with proving me wrong that you totally lose control and start posting retarded remarks just to argue. Sad little man you are.
Adjust your meds your fixating again. ;-)
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted February 03, 2014 06:50 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 4 Feb 2014 02:58
quote:
Gosh how could I be so silly I bow to your wisdom Shane. And here all this time I thought both of these people achieved their goals from paying attention to every last detail and in that respect they both achieved their goals in exactly the same manor. One bike is as modified as possible and the other bike was as stock as possible engine wise and in that respect they aren't anything alike, but they are EXACTLY alike in the respect that both efforts were meticulously prepared for their effort.
Adjusting the squish is legal in any stock motor class just the same as a 5 angle valve job is. You can't port the head but you can do a valve job. Luckily the rules that govern these classes are on paper and not contained within your silly little head. Are you saying Dan CHEATED when he ran those numbers Shane? Don't be shy if you think Dan Millholland is a cheater this is the place to get it out in the open. If you aren't willing to say that then let's agree that his motor was legal and did set and own the record for a stock motor 12R and he done it over 10 years ago. Aren't you insinuating his motor wasn't legal? Engine tolerances have variables built into them during the machining and assembly process on every OEM assembly line. That's why some motors run better than others. One may end up tighter and one may end up looser depending on the parts selected and as fate may have it there will be motors that end up with just about every part on the edge of acceptable and others will end up with nearly perfect parts and still yet others will have a mixture of some good and some not so good. Blueprinting a STOCK motor often times involves adjusting the deck height with base gasket thickness to achieve optimum squish. Who are you to say Dan's was anything other than optimum and within factory specifications? I can't say I wasn't there during assembly only Dan can say. But I do know the motor was found to be LEGAL for the record it held.
Pay attention Shane I NEVER said both bikes were the same. I said both men done what they done the EXACT same way and that way was crossing all their T's and Dotting all the i's... SLANG for paying attention to every LAST DETAIL! You are so obsessed with proving me wrong that you totally lose control and start posting retarded remarks just to argue. Sad little man you are.
Adjust your meds your fixating again. ;-)
Ridiculous. How would I be saying that Dan "cheated"? An MPS bike can have all kinds of mods to the motor. For example, my 1287 motor is totally legal for MPS 1350 class. You stated that the motor was "stock"; I am saying it wasn't showroom stock, it had been opened. The old Supersport drag racing class had "stock-ish" motors. But you couldn't come within 10 hp of one with something you bought off the showroom floor.
If you understood LSR classes, you would know that there is no "stock motor" class. There is MPS, APS, and Production (for streamlined bikes). A Production class bike need not have a stock motor. In fact, the fastest 14's in Production class have been between 1534-1580cc's. A bike with an aftermarket exhaust cannot run in Production class.
Dan's bike was really nice, and fast. Ridden well, no doubt. And Dan is as straight a shooter as there is. But the motor was opened, so it would not be appropriate to compare it to those engines that were showroom stock, and unopened.
Shane
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC