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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX-14.com > Thread: -My ZX-14 Build Thread- (TOC on page 1) NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
KZScott


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high on speed
Posts: 7232
posted September 05, 2008 12:10 PM        
damn Shane that sux. do they make thick steels for the 14? how long were you giving it between runs? did your pressure plate bottom out? (low stack height)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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shane661


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posted September 05, 2008 12:20 PM        
The steels for the 14 are very thick. The clutch is very stout compared to the 12's pieces.

I ran a lot of passes, and I was not giving it a long time to cool. I'm sure it would have lasted much longer if I had given it more rest.

It will be interesting to see the damage.

Shane

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smokinzx14


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posted September 05, 2008 12:35 PM        
Sounds like you are riding the clutch to long ..I hot lap mine all night long and still get 200+ passes .... You got to toss that lever and not hang on to it .. My clutch is out before i get to the tree and the throttle is pinned .. Stage at 5500 and toss that puppy !!!!!!!
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95

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KZScott


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posted September 05, 2008 12:40 PM        
you are lighter than Shane tho Lee. what gearing do you run?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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smokinzx14


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posted September 05, 2008 12:43 PM        
quote:
you are lighter than Shane tho Lee. what gearing do you run?
16/41 I don't think my weight has anything to do with it ... I know guys over 200 pounds and still get 200+ runs out a zx14 clutch ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95

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shane661


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posted September 05, 2008 12:44 PM        Edited By: shane661 on 5 Sep 2008 19:46
quote:
Sounds like you are riding the clutch to long ..I hot lap mine all night long and still get 200+ passes .... You got to toss that lever and not hang on to it .. My clutch is out before i get to the tree and the throttle is pinned .. Stage at 5500 and toss that puppy !!!!!!!


That's probably the case; I'm going to keep working at it. I'm ordering 2 clutch packs on Monday. Depending on how things go, I may be able to race it again this week.

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madboost


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Posts: 187
posted September 06, 2008 03:10 AM        
try cycle concept dragpack, they work great when i need a clutch i will be getting it from them.
____________
08 zx14-with a few things.
94z28 383,TH400,YSI,9",DFI and much more
9.44@144 w 1.5060ft

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shane661


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posted September 06, 2008 07:06 AM        Edited By: shane661 on 6 Sep 2008 17:25
Well, I decided to go up to the garage and try to get the clutch out. After removing the first couple of plates, this is what I was looking at:



Sure, you can see signs of heat. But I would expect some of that just from regular racing abuse. A closer look at the steel plate:



After about 10 minutes I was able to get one of the steels out. I was trying to be as careful as possible, hoping to avoid damaging the teeth on the hub. The verdict? It is warped to hell. Look at the gap on one side when laid "flat" on a smooth concrete surface:



Unfortunately, the next steel plate is just as bad...I gave up trying to remove it. I am going to have to pull the hub out. I'll see if they come any easier when I have the assembly in hand. I also noticed that the hub nut has been staked from the factory, hopefully it won't give me too much trouble. Another reason to get that heavy duty impact gun:



I also dug out some ZX-12 clutch parts for comparison. Here you can see the diameter increase on the 14's steel plates:



And friction plates:



Here is a comparison of a 2mm 12R steel plate (bottom), to a standard 14 plate. Keep in mind that the standard 12R steels are only 1.6mm thick:



You may be wondering what it takes to kill the stout clutch of the 14. I used a three-point attack:

1) Weight: I am around 230 lbs. suited

2) Aggressive launch, with excessive slipping of the clutch. This is the biggie. I had installed stiffer springs to get more feel...but I think it was too much. I couldn't modulate the lever as smoothly and ended up slipping it more in order to avoid wheelies.

3) Crazy number of runs, without letting the clutch fully cool. The clutch was scalding hot...even an hour later it was too hot to touch. I think I could have killed three ZX-12 clutches with the way I abused this one yesterday.

I also found friction material shedding from the narrow plates. I may end up pulling the oil pan and checking the pickup, just to play it safe. I can get the drain plug modified at the same time. Suffice it to say that I won't be racing this week...

Shane

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KZScott


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posted September 06, 2008 07:54 AM        
awesome pics, thx for the comparison. no wonder guys like the clutch so well. if only it wasnt the 5 spring design....
ive been told the best thing to check a steel with for warpage is a piece of glass in a new window. probly a lot flatter than a floor imo
if you damage the hub, you can (very carefully!) use a small flat file to take off sharp edges, and of course clean thoroughly afterwards. i did that to my hub this spring and its working as good as ever
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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madboost


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Posts: 187
posted September 06, 2008 08:49 AM        
shane next time you at the track after making a run, pull the oil cap off, make yourself a ziptie for clutch handle so the clutch lever is depressed, while waiting for the next run pull the ziptie over the clutch handle and remove oil cap, it helps give it a try.
____________
08 zx14-with a few things.
94z28 383,TH400,YSI,9",DFI and much more
9.44@144 w 1.5060ft

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KZScott


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posted September 06, 2008 11:12 AM        
quote:
make yourself a ziptie for clutch handle so the clutch lever is depressed, while waiting for the next run pull the ziptie over the clutch handle and remove oil cap, it helps give it a try.

i just use my glove, but i can pull my clutch lever with 1 finger because of the lock up tune
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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shane661


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posted September 09, 2008 10:51 AM        Edited By: shane661 on 9 Sep 2008 17:53
While I'm waiting for parts to fix the clutch, I figured I'd start checking the bike over and cleaning it up, etc.. While cleaning some of the melted rubber away, I discovered this:





The tire has been rubbing the undertail when launching the bike. As far as I can tell, this just started the last time out...so I think it is from slightly shortening the wheelbase (from a 43T sprocket to a 45T). There are several things I can do to address this, but I'm not sure which way I'm going to go. I know that I don't want to raise the bike up. I might be able to firm up the rear suspension a little, and add that bit of wheelbase back when I change to the 16T countershaft sprocket. Or I can change the undertail, or a combination of the above.

My clutch is due in the mail tomorrow, but the rest of the oem parts and tools I need to make the repairs won't be in until the end of the week.

Shane

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smokinzx14


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posted September 09, 2008 10:56 AM        
Shane i made a tag holder out of a thin sheet of steel and left it long to cover the spot were the tire rubs ...No more problem ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95

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CrotchRocket


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Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
posted September 09, 2008 11:27 AM        
Shane you forgot to add that you were not geared enough for the 64inch wheelbase on top of dragging the clutch too much...Then me making a couple passes to finish it off...lol

One thing though, can you believe I still went faster ET's and MPH with your clutch slipping 14, compared to the V-Rod and FatBoy with the big motor!!!



____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars

*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****

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shane661


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posted September 09, 2008 11:35 AM        
See page 4:

"I decided to take a break for a bit and let one of the faster guys ride my bike. I'm not going to say who it was, but you can call him "Clutch Killer" (or, Crotchrocket ). The clutch, which was apparently already headed south, really gave up the ghost. I couldn't even get the steels out...I guess they warped pretty good. It even makes a squealing noise when you engage it."

Yeah, those H-D's were out of their element! Next time maybe I should bring Racheal's Honda 1000 Superhawk.

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shane661


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posted September 09, 2008 12:03 PM        
quote:
Shane i made a tag holder out of a thin sheet of steel and left it long to cover the spot were the tire rubs ...No more problem ...


I guess it is a common problem on the 14's. I'm glad it rubs there, and is not hitting the fuel pump (knock on wood).

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dubious


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posted September 09, 2008 12:29 PM        
FYI...
It will, burn your CDI if you don't put a plateunder there, or tiger undertail...

____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.

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shane661


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posted September 11, 2008 05:22 AM        Edited By: shane661 on 11 Sep 2008 12:43
Well, my clutch-hub holder-tool arrived today. I was eager to try it out:



A nice sturdy piece that I picked up on Ebay for under $30, shipped. Look at those nice sharp forks sticking out on the end. I bet I can damage something with those! Anyway, on to the job:



Yes, sometimes we must learn from our mistakes. And sometimes that can be time consuming and expensive. I managed to gouge the hell out of the hub while using the holder. It is much harder than the cast hub...with predictable results:







You can see all the damage. I had the holder fairly tight and it dug in pretty good. I am not sure how to avoid this. I see that the are pegs on the backside of the tool, but they look really short. Maybe someone has some suggestions? Perhaps some rubber placed under the forks of the tool?

To add insult to injury, the nut would still not budge:



I decided to give it another go at removing the plates without removing the hub. Since everything is beat to hell, what do I have to lose? I sprayed the hub liberally with WD40, and got the plates out, with moderate additonal gouging of the doorstop...errr...hub. Any question about the degree to which the steels are warped can be answered by this picture of them stacked "flat" on top of each other:



Inspecting the friction plates led to more bad news. Most looked good, but a couple looked like this:



Notice the chunks of friction material coming off of them. I had hoped to not have to pull the oil pan right away, but now I am worried after seeing this. I am afraid of material clogging the oil screen.

So, I think I've learned some valuable lessons. One is not to hot-lap the hell out of the bike. Another is not to slip the clutch too much...oh, you can bet I am going get that lever out promptly after this ordeal. And a third is to make sure that I know how to use a tool properly in order to avoid damaging the part I am trying to "fix".

Now I must: Remove and replace hub, install new clutch and spring setup, remove and re-install exhaust, remove oil pan and clean oil screen and re-install...and change the oil and filter.

If anyone thinks I don't need to replace the hub or pull the oil pan, I'd love to hear about it.

Shane

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shane661


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posted September 11, 2008 07:32 AM        Edited By: shane661 on 11 Sep 2008 14:33
Well, since I had already used the tool and damaged the hub, I figured it would be a good time to read the instructions:



Note the part in bold: "DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN!!". Live and learn, I guess!

Shane

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KZScott


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posted September 11, 2008 07:55 AM        
next time try making the tool i talked to you about making. theres no possible way for you to gouge it that way. try it out on that banged up one if you arent sure about it working.
but, i think a light touch up with a tiny flat file and that would be fine. i wouldnt even bother taking it out. just clean it very well after
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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smokinzx14


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posted September 11, 2008 08:56 AM        
Yup what Scott said ... Use a fine file and clean up the hub , spray it out with brake clean and put it back together .. Don't remove the hub !!!

Shane as you know i have 800+ runs on my bike and 4 sets of clutchs and my pan has never been off ...The filter will get all the big stuff and what makes it though the filter is just clutch dust ..... I have had a few zx14 pans off that have had a few burned up clutchs and found NOTHING in the pan other that a lite film of clutch dust at the bottom of the pan ...In these motors i also pulled the pickup and found NOTHING inside the screen..
It it makes you feel better pull the pan but i feel it's a waste of time at this point ...Keep in mind that i have changed my oil 14+ times in 3500 miles and i use Mobil one 10 W 30 full Syn oil ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95

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shane661


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posted September 11, 2008 09:15 AM        
I have never seen one of the pickup screens in person. I was just going by the fact that it is the first fitration the oil sees. I'd like to know the size of the screen mesh.

I had just put in 4 qts. of Repsol full synthetic before the clutch went...about 5 runs prior. I've changed the oil 4 times in the first 1250 miles. This next change will make 5.

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madboost


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Posts: 187
posted September 11, 2008 12:12 PM        
damn shane that looks nuts, i have 100+ runs on my bike and probably 20 of them are back to back hot laps, i think if anything youre riding the clutch too much.
____________
08 zx14-with a few things.
94z28 383,TH400,YSI,9",DFI and much more
9.44@144 w 1.5060ft

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kawasaki_rick


Zone Head
Posts: 512
posted September 11, 2008 12:19 PM        
If you need any clutch parts let me know.
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CrotchRocket


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Bracket Racing with Betsy
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posted September 11, 2008 12:23 PM        
Get a new hub anyway Shane...The steels caused notches on the hub from the abuse...

You dont want to put a fresh clutch in there to find out it's not right because of the hub!!!


____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars

*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****

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